Inside Kerb (Chicane) - New Thread

[sheridan31]

Guys - I want to start a new thread on the subject of the concrete kerb (hump) at the chicane as I have major concerns about the impact (pardon the pun) on competitor safety. As you saw on Sunday I managed to demonstrate very nicely the art of acrobatics when you have the right launch pad, i.e. hitting the kerb. The result is a huge roll and a completely totalled car.

I am not interested in trying to lay blame, I purely want to focus on the inside kerb as I strongly believe that it turned what would have been a little body rubbing & panel damage (and at worst a spin) into a major accident.

Reviewing photographs and my in car camera footage, I am squeezed into the apex kerb, I have nowhere to go, it was not even possible to drive straight over the kerb due to the angle they curve around at the top of the chicane, my front offside wheel hits the kerb and forces the car to roll over on itself towards the nearside. I believe the sole reason the car rolled was due to the height, shape and steep gradient of the kerb.

I spoke with members of KH and was told the kerbs have been introduced to stop drivers corner cutting, which I agree is a valid exercise, however, my opinion is that the kerb on the right hand side of the chicane is too high and has been introduced at the expense of safety. I have been informed that the inside kerb conforms to FIA guidelines, however I still believe it is too severe.

I would like to hear other driver’s comments – for and against so to gain a more balanced opinion as I appreciate that I may be somewhat sensitive to this particular topic just now!

I am sure there are some strong views out there, but please can we keep focused on the concrete kerb at the chicane as this seems to be the main kerb that could easily cause an accident if caught.

If the consensus is that it is dangerous, I strongly believe it is a point that must be raised and discussed with KH & the SMRC from the standpoint of a united group of drivers.

John

[andrew]

Apr 12, 2011 22:41:47 GMT sheridan31 said:

I have been informed that the inside kerb conforms to FIA guidelines, however I still believe it is too severe.

I would love to see a copy of the specific guidelines. All I can find is this from the FIA.

"Edges, verges and lateral areas
All edges, verges and lateral areas should be level with the edge
of the track and all areas behind kerbs filled in and level."

Which hasn't been followed as in the area behind the chicane kerb theres a bloody big concrete hump! Can't find any specific rules on the size or profile of kerbs though.

Why not ask Knockhill to provide you with the info since they obviously have access to it?

Any chance of seeing your video?

[gallonsperminute]

In Motorsport News today they have a bit about the "improvements" at Knockhill including the FIA sanctioned kerbs.

The kerbs are ideal in my opinion ..............................until you go near them.

The white line rule used to be good enough but for some reason circuits and officials shy away from that form of circuit marking. On certain circuits down south the COC has video evidence for all parts of the circuit so when an observer or driver who has been disadvantaged by corner cutting brings it to his attention the video is looked at and you are out if you corner cut.

[norm]

John

I can't believe how calm and reasoned your post is! As you say, you have every reason to be sensitive to this topic.

I have to confess that I haven't even seen the new kerbs, let alone driven on the track since they were installed, but based on photos and other's reports I think it is clear that they are dangerous.

I don't like speaking for "everyone", but I do believe that most people would support action to stop corner cutting to gain an advantage, but there must be an acknowledgement that sometimes cars will leave the track (scenarios such as yours, or to avoid a spinning car etc) and they shoud be able to do so without being thrown into a roll.

Personally I would vote for the following:

- more robust kerbs, perhaps even in 2 stages where the first 2 feet (nearest to the track) is smooth/driveable, then there is another 2 feet of very heavily corrugated kerb that you could drive over, but would be close to causing suspension damage if you did.

- stricter policing of the corner cutting rules that already exist

This is a bit more speculative, but specifically in terms of the second stage of the chicane I wonder if there is a material they could put behind the kerb so that if you did drive into/over it you were somehow impeded? Gravel would probably work, but would then be spread all over the exit of the chicane which would not be great!

Don't laugh - 2 feet deep water? Kind of like in the athletics steeplechase, you could have a shallow water pool that you ended up driving through if you cut the corner?

Last summer I went to watch the Formula 2 stock cars at Barford and that track has similar concrete humps and I thought they looked very dangerous and no-one had a good word to say about them.

Norm

[XR2 Baz]

GPM, KH have CCTV all round the track and the officials did very well last year at policing the corner cutting rules...I thought.

Regards alternative kerbing, you could try the donut style kerbing at some places, or heavily serrated kerbs. As you say Norm, something which would cause a great upset in the car and you'd prefer to avoid, but not something which is likely to cause a car to roll.

In years gone by, there's been plenty work done to ensure that you're unlikely to have a serious accident should you go off the track in a big way, like making gravel traps bigger. This kerb, it would seem, puts you at great risk simply for making a few inches error in track position! Kinda goes against the grain of the massive improvements in track safety.

In general I think the kerbs are fine, but at the chicane they're inappropriate.

Baz

[ianbru]

John,

As others have said...... a very balanced response in light of your weekend experience!

To repeat what I've already said in previous posts (and to anyone willing to listen), I reckon the right hand side hump at the chicane is the only one which needs to be looked at .... and quickly. Having raced at the weekend, I believe that the other kerbs are pretty effective in stopping the corner cutting that we've all been guilty of in the past. OK, to hit any of them at full pelt could cause a big two wheeled moment, but the one at the top of the chicane just seems to lend itself exactly to the kind of thing experienced by yourself.

The combination of the corner design, along with the camber, the entry speeds, and the possibility of being squeezed to the inside, gives an almost perfect set of circumstances for what happened to you.

To agree with some others, I reckon that they could lower the height of that kerb and build in some aggressive serations at the back edge. I'd rather bend a rim or shake my fillings out than end up barrel rolling towards the spectators. From the various photographs I've seen, the wheels on your car stayed attached somehow. Can you imagine the uproar if we had been discussing a wheel/hub/driveshaft assembly being pitched into a bunch of spectators?

I think Knockhill management need to show some willing to listen to the points being made and react quickly and without fuss.

If you'd like to put a formal letter to Knockhill at some point, I will willingly countersign it.
Greg

[madguy]

having witnessed the ST Incident from post 2 at the top of duffus this Kerb on the inside of the chicane does need looking at before some one gets seriouosly hurt

[sheridan31]

Thanks for the comments - no point in throwing the toys out, I just would like something positive to come out of this to minimise the risk of a similar event.

I agree that the only real combination kerb that offers major concern is the right hand kerb at the chicane; the others to be fair are easier to miss if you are driving within the “confines of the track”.

Alternative kerbing would solve the problem without a doubt and the types mentioned are available and would work for all.

I am still waiting for clarification as to what the exact FIA criteria are for these kerbs; there must be specs regarding height, gradient & width?

Looking at pictures of their use at F1 tracks, many I have seen are preceded by the serrated tiles and are not located at the direct edge of the apex kerbing; this gives that extra margin for error and reduces the risk of launching the car.

On closure of the poll, if we have a strong drivers’ consensus, plus we are in receipt of more info regarding the FIA specs, I agree that a good course of action would be to approach KH.

John

[Catriona]

Good work everyone in keeping this discussion calm and focussed

I'm no driver and I haven't seen the kerbing myself but by the look of the photos I've seen, I am somewhat concerned about it - frankly I don't even recall having ever seen/heard of a roll at that spot in 10+ years of spectating at Knockhill (granted my memory isn't the best but still). So I doubt it's a coincidence that such a major roll should happen the first meeting after the new kerbing, and I suspect it won't be the last time it happens, so long as that particular kerbing stays in place. Although I certainly hope it isn't repeated, those photos looked pretty scary!

[Blair]

I concur completely with what Greg has said above, that really sums up my thoughts on this matter.

We all want to see corner cutting removed from the sport - at the end of the day we all have to follow the track limitations, in the past I agree it was very much a case of follow the leader in that when one started cutting corners, the rest chose, or had to do it just to keep up.

We don't want to see more repeats of accidents like Johns on Sunday - again I completely agree with Gregs point on bits flying off cars - that doesn't bare thinking about.

We have all been forced to run Race-ceivers in Fiestas as it's a safety issue and were told that the MSA dictated to the SMRC the use of them to allow split grids with XR2's/ST's, yet we have these launch pads on corners. Just seems stupid.

Right now nobody can be sure that at the next meeting this won't happen to them - thats how unlucky the whole incident was. So John you will have my support in anything you are looking to do.

[TheRealDC]

Folks

I'd like to add my 2c worth if I may as I have a few points ...

- Cars have rolled at the exit of the chicane before. I remember Ian Forrest a few years back doing just that and there may have been others ..

- Glad everyone is keeping a calm and measured approach to this debate and well done to you John for being so pragmatic.

- I agree with most respondents and voted Yes, as I would agree that serrated kerbing is the best option

- I deliberately tried a few lines through the chicane testing to assess what I could get away with I guess. Clipped it a couple of times (right kerb) and first time at slower pace, was just about OK, but second time at greater pace and I was off past the grasscrete and hanging on. That was just clipping the kerb. It would be all too easy to just aim 6 inches to far right and roll...

- Wonder whether they'll still be in place when the BTCC comes to town? ;D



DC

[aland]

John, at least your only injuries were a badly damaged wallet, when I saw the car on the wrecker my thoughts went back to the roll in the st's at duffus in 09. glad the cage did its job. I would agree at fast bits like duffus and chicane the humps need modifying for safety so you have my support.

suppose the question is that if you have btcc corner cutting what punishment can be imposed, a 10 second penalty with a black and white flag wont hurt the car

[sandyreid65]

I totally agree with all the comments on this topic the slightest mis judgement of the right kerb at speed and anyone racing could be looking at a very expensive fix or even worse an injury was it the kerb that also caused the st to run off at that point in the qualifying?

[TheRealDC]

John?

[Blair]

Power steering belt snapped on John's car - that caused his off then.