ianbru
Midfielder
Surprisingly, Ian Bru is not my real name! (it's Greg)
Posts: 96
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Post by ianbru on Sept 9, 2010 10:15:57 GMT
Maybe to get some consistency back into "who's allowed to do what" at the chicane (and maybe also at the top of Duffus), Knockhill management should look at installing "anti cutting kerbs"..... something similar to Silverstone? I was watching some Mazda MX5's racing at Sliverstone on Motors TV last night, and every time someone tried to cut the corner too much it pitched them offline. It didn't take too long before people got the message and stayed off the inside of the kerbs. Attachments:
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Post by dagman16 on Sept 9, 2010 12:26:38 GMT
The kerbs at Knockhill used to be higher than they are now up to about 9/10 years ago when they lowered them as the F3/GT mob wouldn't come unless they were lowered. Now the F3s don't seem to want to come and I understand the GTs won't be back next year, maybe they could be raised again?
I remember seeing touring cars pre-lowered kerbs doing Russ Swift impressions on 2 wheels... !
David
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Post by emicen on Sept 9, 2010 13:26:35 GMT
Yes there used to be a higher kerb at Duffus but it also used to be a lot slower corner before it was straightened out. Frankly an anti-cutting kerb there would just be ridiculously dangerous, pitching cars on to two wheels to head down to Leslies? No thanks!
The kerb at the chicane was only marginally higher, I distinctly remember Murray Walker shreiking "how do they do that!?" in the 95 BTCC as they came through the chicane sideways (has to be said, the exact same as we do now, as in, bothering to flick left right rather than straight line).
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Post by aland on Sept 9, 2010 15:00:03 GMT
I am not in favour of raising kerbs what I would do on the inside of the chicane is put either a line of tyres or rectocel on the apex, that should stop any corner cutting. ditto at duffus
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Post by XR2 Baz on Sept 9, 2010 22:26:19 GMT
I rescind my previous comments! I had no idea about that rule regarding the BTCC, same circuit, different rules. To be fair, I don't often have cause to refer to the judicial part of the blue book and I don't have insomnia ;D It would be handy if someone pointed that out before. It kinda makes this whole corner cutting argument a moot point now (in my mind). It does make the BTCC all a lot more entertaining in my opinion. I have lost a few passengers side mirrors on the air fence on the left of the chicane myself, it's a good marker of "OK, that's how much kerb I can take" Suffice to say, I've never lost two in a row So, getting back to the original topic...I'll be out! Anyone got a long range forecast? Not that I care too much, wet would be nice for a change Baz
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Post by XR2 Baz on Sept 9, 2010 22:27:54 GMT
Oh, aye, I do remember the high Duffus kerbs, I loved that, two wheels going down the hill to Leslie's, very spectacular. It's not as scary as you might think.
Baz
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Post by gallonsperminute on Sept 10, 2010 8:05:41 GMT
The point that everyone is overlooking is that the circuit is of a very poor design. Since day one when Tom Kinnaird laid out the track it has suffered from a couple of corners that do not "flow". The reason for this is that corners that "flow" open out but corners that do not tighten and thus hamper the racing line and make corner cutting the quickest option. I cannot take responsibility for working this out but the person who suggested it, a former Scottish Saloon Car champion from Ingliston days had it sussed when Knockhill opened and is spot on with his assesment. If you go further afield it is the same on all circuits, corners that tighten are rubbish to drive on and the quick line is to cut them. Perhaps the circuit development manager after his spectacular spin will look at the problem and re-align the corners ( it does not need much change) that cause all the problems and save himself any further ridicule from his peers.
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Post by emicen on Sept 10, 2010 9:20:19 GMT
I rescind my previous comments! I had no idea about that rule regarding the BTCC, same circuit, different rules. To be fair, I don't often have cause to refer to the judicial part of the blue book and I don't have insomnia ;D It would be handy if someone pointed that out before. It kinda makes this whole corner cutting argument a moot point now (in my mind). It does make the BTCC all a lot more entertaining in my opinion. I have lost a few passengers side mirrors on the air fence on the left of the chicane myself, it's a good marker of "OK, that's how much kerb I can take" Suffice to say, I've never lost two in a row So, getting back to the original topic...I'll be out! Anyone got a long range forecast? Not that I care too much, wet would be nice for a change Baz Cant take credit, I only know cause someone pointed it out on Pistonheads in the a thread discussing the same thing. Was thinking about getting power mirrors for the Mini for next season so I can fold them back out mid race after discovering the limit of cut The point that everyone is overlooking is that the circuit is of a very poor design. Since day one when Tom Kinnaird laid out the track it has suffered from a couple of corners that do not "flow". The reason for this is that corners that "flow" open out but corners that do not tighten and thus hamper the racing line and make corner cutting the quickest option. I cannot take responsibility for working this out but the person who suggested it, a former Scottish Saloon Car champion from Ingliston days had it sussed when Knockhill opened and is spot on with his assesment. If you go further afield it is the same on all circuits, corners that tighten are rubbish to drive on and the quick line is to cut them. Perhaps the circuit development manager after his spectacular spin will look at the problem and re-align the corners ( it does not need much change) that cause all the problems and save himself any further ridicule from his peers. Disagree entirely. Duffus was straightened out to rectify it breaking the flow yet its now cut even more than it used to be. There are no corners on Knockhill that "tighten" as you go through them that I've ever come across.
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Post by aland on Sept 10, 2010 10:35:05 GMT
The point that everyone is overlooking is that the circuit is of a very poor design. Since day one when Tom Kinnaird laid out the track it has suffered from a couple of corners that do not "flow". The reason for this is that corners that "flow" open out but corners that do not tighten and thus hamper the racing line and make corner cutting the quickest option. I cannot take responsibility for working this out but the person who suggested it, a former Scottish Saloon Car champion from Ingliston days had it sussed when Knockhill opened and is spot on with his assesment. If you go further afield it is the same on all circuits, corners that tighten are rubbish to drive on and the quick line is to cut them. Perhaps the circuit development manager after his spectacular spin will look at the problem and re-align the corners ( it does not need much change) that cause all the problems and save himself any further ridicule from his peers. sorry but have to disagree, yes the track needs some tweaking but IMO it remains one o the most challenging in the UK. Duffus needs to be changed a bit to slow the entry speed as since the track was widened the carnage there has been unreal, if you were to make duffus any faster you will only increase the problems at mcintyres. at the chicane i would sweeten it out to almost the touring car line, there is space to shift the marshals post back a bit. the rest leave as it is knockhill sorts the men from the real men that is for sure
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Post by Blair on Sept 10, 2010 11:49:34 GMT
I'd leave the chicane exactly as it is. Despite all this talk it can actually be taken without annoying the CoC, albeit a bit slower. Getting it right is a big challenge and it feels mega going through there with at least 2 wheels in the air. As for tightening corners, can think of other examples of circuits with more tightening corners than Knockhill, Hawthorn and Tower at Croft in my opinion are two.
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Post by Dave on Sept 10, 2010 19:31:20 GMT
I was really disapointed with the BTCC racing cutting the chicane in the way it did - so I dont think the SMRC racing should make the same mistake.
With the BTCC racing you go to see them go round the track as fast and masterfully as they can. Its not masterful just straightlining a corner - if they actually went round the corner that would be masterful - going in straight lines is not.
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Post by XR2 Baz on Sept 10, 2010 23:29:00 GMT
Changing the track to solve corner cutting is a bit OTT. Any corner, flowing or not, will be quicker by cutting it. The challenge is to get the corner right, without cutting it, doing that right is more satisfying than a simple brake-turn-accelerate corner. Personally I quite like the chicane, it's great when you get it right one time, if I could do that ten times in a row I'd be well chuffed So the BTCC are allowed to do what the rest of us are not, fair enough. At least the blue book is up front in saying "one rule for you, another for them". You won't see that in many other sports. Baz
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Post by gallonsperminute on Sept 11, 2010 20:54:30 GMT
The point I was trying to make has been missed. Rather than try and explain things further, can those who disagree with me tell me why the Pros spend so much time off the circuit to get a quick lap? Once we have established the reason they take these lines then perhaps we can go further and work out why the layout at a couple of corners is wrong.
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Post by XR2 Baz on Sept 12, 2010 0:02:56 GMT
Because it's faster and they're allowed to
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ianbru
Midfielder
Surprisingly, Ian Bru is not my real name! (it's Greg)
Posts: 96
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Post by ianbru on Sept 12, 2010 8:58:03 GMT
Baz....... It's only "faster" in race terms, if there is an advantage gained over your fellow racers by doing it. If everyone is doing it, then there is no advantage to it. If everyone was forced to stay inside the boundaries of the track, the fast guys would still be fast.
As far as being allowed to do it.... that's where the problem lies. OK, it makes good veiwing to see cars on 2 wheels and dust clouds flying up, but where is the line going to be drawn?
My personal opinion is that there should be one rule for all........... That you have to have 2 wheels inside the white lines.
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