Can safety at Duffus/Leslies be improved?

[Mike Strong]

This should not in any way be taken as criticism of Knockhill or it's staff etc.

There have been some pretty violent incidents at Duffus/Leslies this year after cars have left the track (without outside assistance, I should add).

I feel that the gravel trap down the left of Duffus should not extend as far as the apex of Leslies.
There have been a few cars - that I've seen anyway - which have gone through the gravel where Euan rolled and have been pitched at an alarming angle when they hit it.

A car that far down the hill is unlikely to be going in a straight line if it leaves the track at that point so removing the gravel towards the bottom of the hill may actually make it safer.

Also the gravel at the bottom of the hill, on the outside, hasn't managed to slow a number of cars before they hit the tyres - Euan(earlier in the year), Ian Donaldson, Manio Loia (Vic Covey?). It may make more sense to extend the tarmac there instead (though this is likely to be expensive).

Or perhaps Duffus should be slowed/tightened - this would both reduce the speed that cars leave the track and would make the run offs, gravel, etc. more effective?

Thoughts (apart from me being a big girl's blouse )?

[martinbuchan]

I did read in Autosport that tarmac run offs are safer than Gravel as the car cant dig in obviously or skip over plus Russell Morgan almosty rolled over in the wet on the grass when his car dug in quite a bit but thankfully landed on 4 wheels. But Im guessing putting tarmac could be expensive plus could it lead to some new problems regarding corner cutting perhaps?

But kudos to Mike, track safety is an ongoing thing and surley its up to us drivers and marshels to speak up in regards to other's safety

[AndyP]

Can an impartial observer contribute to this? I usually watch you guys and gals through a 1" square viewfinder, hurtling down Duffus at speeds I reserve for 3 lane motorways. There's no doubt it's a fast corner and hill, but it does add to the excitement of a close race.

On looking at loads of pics of Euan's incident, not just my own, it looks like he slid through the deep gravel at the bottom of Duffus and got sprung into the air by his offside wheels digging into the grass edge at the end of the gravel trap. Perhaps a more gradual change from gravel to grass would stop this from happening again.

Again, I DONT speak from experience... I've driven maybe 30 laps in anger round Knockhill. About 15 of them were on a MINI Cooper S experience day with one Rory Butcher in the passenger seat. Second lap, I lifted off at Carlube, got scared touched the brake, back end stepped out and I flew into the tyre wall at 245mph. Well, it felt that fast but apparently I was only doing about 30mph. Don't tell my mates though will you, they get the 245mph story. The other time was a very cautious track night when I took my Cooper S on the track. Had a good time, but I sure as hell did NOT do the speeds down Duffus that all you racing guys do.

Holy sh** I can ramble when I get going.

A.

[Mike Strong]

Attached is a screenshot from my onboard on the first lap of the restart.
Looks like the car was either pitched by the gravel or at least caused it to go airborne/bounce.

[AndyP]

Oct 20, 2009 22:36:03 GMT Mike Strong said:

Attached is a screenshot from my onboard on the first lap of the restart.
Looks like the car was either pitched by the gravel or at least made to go airborne.

True enough.

A.

[andrew]

Oct 20, 2009 21:31:19 GMT Mike Strong said:

Or perhaps Duffus should be slowed/tightened - this would both reduce the speed that cars leave the track and would make the run offs, gravel, etc. more effective?

Thoughts (apart from me being a big girl's blouse )?

They spent money opening up Duffus to make it faster at the end of the 2005 season so I doubt they will spend money in 2009/2010 tightening it up!

For me the simple answer is remove the gravel trap, its so small that it makes negligable difference to how hard you might hit something if your sliding through that part of it.

I don't know if the answer is replacing it all with grass or going for a grasscrete style thing because that then opens it up for abuse by the drivers? Then again it would be on the other side of the floppy and ppl dont seem to be wiping that out very often nowadays.

[XR2 Baz]

A car will dig in to gravel or grass...I can testify both will flip a car over The only thing that'll stop it happening is a hard surface, but yeah corner cutting will likely end up being rediculous. Can you imagine the speed that some folk would be tempted to carry through Duffus if they knew that they could run out as wide as the spectator fence Some guys already include the gravel trap as part of the racing line

So what would this do for bike racing? KH is very big on bikes too, I'm not sure what those guys would prefer to land in/on.

Baz

[Blair]

I'm not so sure if the gravel was removed at Leslie's if it'd end up being used as part of the track. I don't feel using that part of the track would really help, and anyway you would sure as heck get a bollocking for it (unless you race in the BTCC). On the other hand if the Brands removed the gravel on the outside of Paddock that would really be abused.

No disrespect to the guys who have had accidents this year but these are a few incidents out of however many racing laps? Knockhill probably can't justify it based on there being fluid/rain causing accidents (which is what I believe you mean Mike when you say outside factors). Their answer would be if there's rain people need to drive within their limits.

I agree with what AndyP said. Watching racing through Duffus is exciting, and driving it is scary and a challenge. It's pretty satisfying when you get it right on the odd occasion.

[andrew]

Oct 20, 2009 23:20:47 GMT XR2 Baz said:

Can you imagine the speed that some folk would be tempted to carry through Duffus if they knew that they could run out as wide as the spectator fence Some guys already include the gravel trap as part of the racing line

I didn't mean up to the tyre wall! Just about 10ft or less in. Thats the part that you end up going across sideways if you lose it at the top of the hill. Euan only hit the small bit of it directly at Leslie's and only that small area is what I meant.

[aland]

i dont know if it is the grass/gravel on the outside that is totally at fault, i reckon that the gravel needs to be extended all the way to mcintyres as the amount of bouncing cars i have seen at the join between the gravel and grass is unreal, a lot of cars seem to be getting pitched out from the kerb on the inside at duffus sp perhaps a bit of airwall is needed here to keep cars from corner cutting. on the infield side a few tons of gravel is needed as when cars go off on the inside there is so little gravel to take any sting out of the cars. there was a few that ended up in or on the tyres there (manio loia, ian donaldson, martin johnson (BTCC) and others) there was also daryl ford that almost rolled on the crap there and ended up holing his fuel tank. i know it was raised with KH by the club but dont know of any outcome

either way i hope something is done in the winter

[oversteer]

It's not really a question of safety because none of us have been hurt there, have we?

Racing should have an element of danger. It adds to the buzz and the appeal. Remove the danger and the driving standards will drop - no doubts about it. Schumacher wouldn't have tried his moves 40 years earlier.

[foxymarshal]

being a tad of a grumpy cow here but the warnings all state motorsport is dangerous !
this is not just a car track but a motorsport centre.
before you need to start thinking about track safety, you need to ask the questions, how many major incidents happen at hot marques nights ? often these are big events with more cars going round and with out being too nasty a lot less driver orientation
and what about bikes, sidecars, karts etc etc etc
the really sad bit is, if they did make changes to the track, drivers would just abuse it and use any extra tarmac as extra track.