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Post by Heinicke on Nov 24, 2008 20:36:32 GMT
Dont ya reckon this is going a wee bit off topic - Yes it is Blair, but some of the best ideas have come out of lateral thinking. XR2s are getting too expensive, I've seen a few on the market which are very expensive, twice the price of my 1st racing car.
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Post by craig21 on Nov 26, 2008 19:19:17 GMT
A fiesta championship sounds the best incomparison to cost because parts for the modern fiestas (mk4.5.6) are readily available at cheaper prices. mk2.3 parts are still easy to come by aswell. It would also be the easiest championship to get into because if you go on some of the car sales web sites EG: pistonheads and look for a fiesta there is plenty to choose from and at cheap prices and once youve convrted them for racing you will still be looking at a pritty cheap car compared to the price of most of the cars already racing.
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davv
Midfielder
Posts: 60
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Post by davv on Nov 27, 2008 13:15:53 GMT
I voted for a Fiesta championship and think the MKII XR2's still have several years left in them. I suspect they'd still be the best car out assuming everyone is forced to run the same tyres which it should be.
Suspect ST/XR2 times would be well matched on control tyre.
David
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xr2rep
Backmarker
xr2rep@hotmail.co.uk
Posts: 33
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Post by xr2rep on Nov 27, 2008 14:31:35 GMT
assuming everyone is forced to run the same tyres which it should be. David Why should they David? If we want people to move to a national series, using their same car, the ST's are the only class at the moment which are run to the same regs in SMRC and BRSCC races. If we adopt a similar series to the BRSCC Championship you have three classes of car, three separate championships and an overall championship. Not all these classes run on the same tyres, they use the same compound but wheel diameter and tyre radius and profiles differ. For the SMRC to insist that the ST's run on the same tyres as the XR2's would mean that anyone who wanted to run in both championships would need to have another 6 to 8 rims and tyres minimum and need extra storage. While it might be interesting racing in the XR2's with Wets and Slicks this adds additional costs to what we want as an entry level class. If we go the BRSCC route and can get sponsors agreement on tyres anyone with an ST will then have the option to race in both the Scottish and BRSCC champs without any additional tyre or other costs. The way the BRSCC classes are set up any class can win the overall Championship as it is based on class points. Can you think of anything better than winning a 3 car type championship in the oldest, cheapest car in the series simply because you can be more consistant and gain more class points than the guys with the bigger budgets? Does it really matter where you finish on the road as long as you are the fastest in your class and have had a great race getting there? To my mind the mixed class is the only sensible way to go as it allows for increasing ST numbers and decreasing XR's without detracting from the excitement the Fiesta's give the drivers and spectators. But i'm not biased [glow=red,2,300]XR2Rep ;D[/glow]
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Post by Blair on Nov 27, 2008 14:55:52 GMT
What do Kumho think to ST's running in a championship they support on Dunlop tyres ?
Sooner or later the XR2/Fiesta championship will need to be all on one tyre, we can't go on forever with ST's starting 20 seconds after XR2's. For what it's worth I do agree that it is silly to have ST's in SMRC on different tyres to BRSCC, unecessary expense but I do feel a solution needs to be sorted out sometime.
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davv
Midfielder
Posts: 60
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Post by davv on Dec 1, 2008 13:06:22 GMT
My opinion is that there shouldn't be a mix of Slicks and treaded tyres on the same grid, and particularty so if all the cars start without time delays which I feel it may head towards. I also think the XR2's should remain on one tyre type for cost and simplicity for reasons.
To be honest.. Yes it does mean something to win the race overall rather than just class. It's one of a number of reasons I'd be attracted to a single make series.
David
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Post by XR2 Baz on Dec 1, 2008 18:33:46 GMT
I think we should keep it to XR2's and ST's, other wise we risk diluting the field too much. There's not enough drivers for that. We should all run one tyre and sorry but I think the XR2's have to win here. They will remain a budget way into racing for a while to come yet so I don't see why we should tinker with a successful series. The XR2's are potentially a stepping stone to ST's. I reckon that if you have the budget to compete in both the Scottish and National series then you probably can afford a few extra tyres. You'll use a couple of sets down south, and a couple of set up here, so you'd have to buy them anyway and hey, the benefit is cheaper tyres for racing in Scotland (Offset's the cost of a set of wheels) Out of interest, I did some maths the other day, the difference between an XR2 season and a Mini season is about 2 grand (more for Mini's). I assume ST's will be similar. You could skimp a bit on tyres to bring that figure down, as the cost difference is pretty much all on runing costs...the entry fees etc are the same or similar. The big difference not taken into account is the cost of the cars. Baz
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Post by Dave on Dec 1, 2008 20:30:08 GMT
I think the choice of the one tyre is key. For example I think the difference between a Dunlop racing slick and the Kumho tyre will be noticable, especially in the wet. The difference between a Dunlop racing slick and a Yokohama 048 wouldnt be so noticable. Using the 48 as a example. It would be a much better tyre for the XR2's to race on and it would save the ST's a fortune. Having wet and dry tyres means 8 rims straight away. 8x Wheels at £100? each? 4x Slicks at £150? each? 4x Wets at £150? each? Someone add that up... mmm no on second thoughts dont!
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Post by XR2 Baz on Dec 1, 2008 22:51:28 GMT
For example I think the difference between a Dunlop racing slick and the Kumho tyre will be noticable, especially in the wet. Look at the fastest laptimes from the last race meeting. In the dry, the ST's were 1.5s quicker. In the pouring rain, with proper wets on, they were over 7s quicker. Slightly noticable! Baz
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Post by Charlie on Dec 2, 2008 14:52:03 GMT
Using the 48 as a example. It would be a much better tyre for the XR2's to race on and it would save the ST's a fortune. Having wet and dry tyres means 8 rims straight away. 8x Wheels at £100? each? 4x Slicks at £150? each? 4x Wets at £150? each? Someone add that up... mmm no on second thoughts dont! Sorry Dave, I don't agree. The ADDITIONAL cost to run STs in Scotland would be 1. Set of 4 new slicks for racing 2. Set of 4 old slicks for practice and mix and match for qualifying 3. Set of 4 wets for racing, with no backup for wear and tear during a race weekend. Thats 12 rims, 8 slicks, 4 wets. With Knockhill weather last year you would probably have opted for another 4 rims and wets. This is not an small amount when racing budgets are so tight and transport costs etc are escallating getting bigger. To say that if they can afford to race an ST they can absorb the extra costs is a bit naive. The more likely outcome is that they would use the budget money just to do the National races saving tyre, rim, storage and entry costs from SMRC races. Sponsorship and commercialism also comes into it. Khomo have a long standing relationship with XR2s and we would like to see it continue, but the ST issue will certainly have to be looked into. I just can't see it being resolved by everyone moving to the same tyres. Sorry Dave
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Post by Charlie on Dec 2, 2008 16:09:42 GMT
More on tyres. I've just came back from Anglesey where we had 3 STs and an XR2 competing in a Saloon and Sports Car race. The competition included a Porsche 997 GT3, Mazda RX7, Peugot 206, Seat Leon Supercopa, Seat Leon, Renault Clio Cup, some Sierra Cosworths, BMW Mini Coopers, and various styles of MG. More can be seen at www.tsl-timing.com/special/2008/84891.pdf for qualifying and race results. As regards tyres, Qualifying times Race 1 09 55 Chris Phillip XR2 Hoosier Slicks 1:25.548 12 41 Allan Potts ST Dunlop Wets 1:26.277 13 42 Stewart Scott ST Dunlop Wets 1:26.391 14 99 Mark Taylor ST Dunlop Wets 1:27.755 Results Race 1 09 42 Stewart Scott ST Dunlop Slicks 1:21.246 12 55 Chris Phillip XR2 Hoosier Slicks 1:23.670 13 99 Mark Taylor ST Dunlop Slicks 1:21.979 DNF 41 Allan Potts ST Dunlop Slicks 1:26.277 Qualifying times Race 2 09 41 Allan Potts ST Dunlop Wets 1:26.418 12 42 Stewart Scott ST Dunlop Wets 1:26.707 13 55 Chris Phillip XR2 Hoosier Slicks 1:27.229 14 99 Mark Taylor ST Dunlop Wets 1:27.818 Results Race 2 08 42 Stewart Scott ST Dunlop Slicks 1:26.194 11 55 Chris Phillip XR2 Hoosier Slicks 1:26.650 12 41 Allan Potts ST Dunlop Slicks 1:28.170 DNF 99 Mark Taylor ST Dunlop Slicks 1:28.288 Just goes to show what tyres can do. An XR2 can just about hold its own with an ST when both run slicks, but it's not as simple as that. The Hooziers are a softer and stickier slick with less life and costing even more than a Dunlop slick. I don't think we want to get into a tyre war to equalise performance with all the costs that it involves.
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Post by Dave on Dec 2, 2008 17:01:46 GMT
Not sure if you got what I meant Charlie. I meant (taking the National scene totally out the picture just now) XR2's race on 4x Yokohamas 48's in dry or wet. ST's race on 4x Yokohamas 48's in dry or wet. I need to buy rims at some point. With the above I need to buy 4x rims and 4x tyres. (Probably 6 so I have 2 spares). With the current slicks and wets I need to buy 8x rims and 8x tyres. (Probably 12 so I have a spare set of slicks as you say Charlie)
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Post by XR2 Baz on Dec 2, 2008 18:51:45 GMT
What's naive? If your going to run in Scotland you'll do in about 8 Dunlops, so there's no cost implications in running on Kumho's, they're the same price (as are Yoko's). In my opinion, if I had the budget to race in two championships, the cost of 4 extra wheels wouldn't hurt.
I do think all cars should run on a single tyre and I don't think that moving a budget series to slicks and wets is in the spirit of 'budget'. What that tyre may be, I couldn't really care, so long as it's reasonably priced and durable.
Baz
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